The Higher Ed Podcast
The place for authors, professors, and curious listeners to get practical writing advice, behind-the-scenes publishing content, and firsthand experiences shared by textbook authors.
The Higher Ed Podcast
Why We Still Knock on Campus Doors After 78 Years with Greg DeRosa
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Join us as we interview Senior Managing Editor Greg DeRosa to find out why in-person campus visits are a vital part of our Kendall Hunt philosophy. Beyond covering the importance of face-to-face interactions for building relationships, establishing trust, and fostering a sense of community, we also tackle the challenges and misconceptions that are common in the publishing industry.
Greg DeRosa
Senior Managing Editor
gderosa@kendallhunt.com
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Welcome on in to the higher education podcast with Kendall Hunt Publishing. My name is Jen Lewis, your host. I am the Director of Marketing. And today's episode is a good one. We are talking about why we still knock on campus doors after 78 years. And I've got someone from my team with me today. Ryan, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Ryan Brown:Hello, this is Ryan Brown. I'm a Senior Marketing Coordinator of Higher Ed here at Kendall Hunt. And I'm thrilled to be here.
Jen Lewis:Thanks for joining us. And we know we we talked about who we wanted to be on this episode. And we have another Kendall Hunt legend with us today - Mr. Greg DeRosa. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about you what your role is and how long you've been with Kendall Hunt.
Greg DeRosa:Well, thank you for that introduction. And I'm pretty sure that you know, everybody else probably said no. But it's great to be with you guys. I, as, Jen said, I'm Greg de Rosa. I'm a Senior Managing Editor. I handle basically the majority of the small-school reps in our company. So we deal with the colleges and universities that have enrollments of 7,500 students or fewer. So it's a little bit of a different program than the AEs do. But it's a great opportunity, a great growing kind of group. And I've been with Kendall Hunt - as Jen said, The Legend - have been here 28 years, which is really insane. To think about that kind of stuff and coming up on 29, you know, in September, so it's - it's around the corner. It's gone fast. It's gone fast. But it's a great place to be. And I've been very fortunate.
Jen Lewis:Well, let's let's start off with, you know, the purpose of talking about this topic: why we still knock on campus doors after 78 years. The purpose of talking about this is obviously to figure out why, but let's go way back. Let's go way back. Let's talk about your very first experience, maybe going to campus - I know, it's been a long time, and you might have to dig deep, but do you remember?
Greg DeRosa:Absolutely, absolutely. Well, the job, you know, the job has changed quite a bit from back in the stone age than what they're doing now. I tell my team all the time, "You know, remember when I started there was no Internet, there was none of that. Right?" So, you know, when we do things, like trying to find course schedules and things online, it's funny to say that we actually had to call the school and we had to pay a fee, and they would mail us a printed catalog. And then that's how we would find courses names. So they're like, "Are you kidding?" I'm like, "No, that's that's literally how we had to do things." You know, when we did an agreement, we had to type it on a typewriter; we didn't have computers and things and such. So, if you made a mistake, you had to do it all over again. So you learn how to pay attention to details really quickly and doing it, but I remember I'd started in September, and we had a different training process at the time. And when I went on campus for the first time, it was literally - and I know you guys are both sports fans - it was literally after the Superbowl. If I remember correctly, it was the print, it was the Broncos and the Packers Super Bowl, and it was a big game. And I'm like thinking, Okay, I'm really excited to go on campus. And, you know, I'm just fired up when I go to my first appointment, and I go into the professor's office. And so, I need small talk. And so I'm like, "Okay, what do you think about the game yesterday?" And he goes, "I didn't watch it." I think, You mean, you didn't watch the Superbowl?! I go,"What else did you do?" He's like, "I went for a drive," or whatever. I remember calling
Paul Carty:"I don't know that this job's for me. I got my first one. I'm like, 'I got nothing to talk to you about'" Like, everybody wants to the Superbowl! So it was an interesting experience. But, nonetheless, I learned that you had to - you're gonna find some different people in this job. You know, not everybody was gonna really like you. But I
think that's been the fun of it:the fact that you learn a lot. And I think I've learned so much, over these 28 years in just these pickup conversations with professors, probably more so than I did in the four years that I went to college. I have to apologize to my mom and dad for paying for that education. Learned along the way. Probably got a better one for free. But nonetheless, it worked out.
Jen Lewis:Well, it ended up the job was for you. So we fast forward to present day, 28 years. Why do you think we still prioritize face-to-face visits in this digital world?
Greg DeRosa:You know, I would say the face to face stuff legitimizes a little bit about what we do. I think what I mean is that I shop on the internet, and everybody's got a store, and sometimes you don't know who they are. And, you know, really, when I first started, not a lot of people knew about Kendall Hunt. We're much bigger now than we were back then. And so they would be like, okay, Kendall Hunt is Ryan Brown working out of his basement for all they knew. And so now, they kind of understand who we are a little bit, but I think it allows us to give people that comfort level a little bit, when they're looking for a publisher that they're not looking on the on the internet and going, well, this person can do publishing, but you don't know anything about those people. Right? You know who we are, and I think by allowing us to be face to face and put that kind of person in front of them, they realize that we're legitimate, you know, that we're a real company, not just somebody that's posing as a company on an internet, where they don't really get that appreciation. So I think that's made a big difference for us.
Jen Lewis:Well, I don't want to speak for everyone, but anytime I get an email from outside of the organization, you know it's a sales pitch right away. I'm not saying that we don't also use email marketing in the same way that other companies do. But I think when you have that presence, and then the professor's right there, and colleges get to know our name, and then they see an email come in, it does, it legitimizes us as a company. But you know, I kind of want to merge two questions here, because I do want to talk about, you touched a little bit on how the digital world has helped you. Now, you don't have to use a typewriter, you don't have to get a catalog sent to you. So let's merge into one question, as you prepare for campus visits, right, how do you get ready? And how do you think technology has helped you guys, you know, navigate campus weeks?
Greg DeRosa:So as we prepare? You know, it's a good question. I think as we prepare for campus weeks, we actually use technology more now than we did, because it allows us to see bookstores online a little bit more, where again, back in the day, the only way for me to see that was to go physically to those. So I think it's allowed us to be a little bit more prepared as to knowing what the authors are using ahead of time. I could see what books they might be using and those kinds of things. So I think it's allowed us to be a little bit more prepared as far as that, but our structure is we're not to pitch a product, right? And so we don't go into something and have a predetermined notion of something. And so a lot of what we prepare on is really getting good at our five-step-interview, and practicing that, because a lot of what we're doing is about asking good questions, listening, and then trying to find the right solution. So we're not there to kind of steer the conversation. We're doing
what you are doing today:asking good, open-ended questions, listening and then kind of asking follow-ups and things to those to make sure we get the right solutions.
Jen Lewis:Are you saying I'm a good host, Greg?
Greg DeRosa:I think you're awesome. I think you're an awesome host, but you know why? You're an awesome host because I'm an awesome guest. So there we go. It works out both ways.
Jen Lewis:I like that, I like that. You get it! Let's, let's talk about that interview process, right? Because like you said, we don't go there, and we don't just pitch a product. We genuinely want to find their pain points and how we can solve them. Do you find a pattern or like a trend with what their pain points are? What, you know, maybe they have some misconceptions about publishing, or maybe things that will hold them back, or things that are happening in their classroom? Can you maybe touch on that?
Greg DeRosa:There's definitely misconceptions. And those have always been consistent. I think those are what we do and why we do it. I think in some of those things, unfortunately, we get reluctance to work with us in some ways because of the traditional publishers people are more familiar with. They will tend to create product that's super expensive that may not fit the needs of the students. And so we kind of get branded a little bit like,"Well, you're a publisher, therefore, you're evil, right?" They see those people as being kind of, you know, not the best fit for looking out for students and so forth. We have the opposite approach. So a lot of times, it's kind of us getting in saying, "Look, I understand how you're viewing those publishers. And while we're in the same arena, we're not the same way." And so a lot of our process with that is making sure people understand we're not a vanity press. Again, it goes to the legitimization of what we were talking about, right? We're a real publisher, we do real products, and we show them some of the things that we do. They're like, "Wow, like, this is amazing. This is high quality stuff." And so I think they need to understand some of those things. You need to understand that they have some of the same concerns. Jen, to your question, you know, they're worried about cost to students, as we all are. I've told them - and I know you have younger kids, as does Ryan- but my kids are older and what I've told professors is for many years in this job, I sat on one side of the desk, as a publisher. Well, for the last six, seven years, putting two kids through college, I was on the other side of the desk. I had to pay for books. I understand the pain points that those those students and those parents had to endure - to spend$1,000 in a semester for books, and then to find out that my kid never opened them, it really made me upset. So that only drove me more to say, "Look, I understand your apprehension. But you know, I don't want your students to spend $100 for a product are not going to open. I'd rather have them spend $50 for something that's going to create value...that's going to protect their investment in the education that they're making. And at the end of the day, it's something that was worth it."
Jen Lewis:That's been kind of prevalent with all the professors you talk to?
Greg DeRosa:Yeah.
Jen Lewis:And I would imagine that probably makes your conversations much easier now, because you're kind of in that season of life, and it's more relatable to you. So, you know, speaking on that, when you're in there, and you're talking with them, when you've discovered their pain points, what are some things you tell them that Kendall Hunt can do for them? Why do you think that one-size-fits-all doesn't work? You say we've got these other publishers out there, and they raise the prices on books. And then sometimes, students don't even open the books. What do you tell them we can do for them to help maybe customize a book? Or what are some things that can take away those pain points?
Greg DeRosa:You know, the one-size-fits-all? I mean, look, you see that in every walk of life now, right? I mean, most people don't want off-the-shelf anything. We're a customized world. And so why wouldn't we customize an education, I think you're gonna even see some of that, quite frankly, in the coming years, as the price of education continues to escalate. I think you're gonna see customizable education. The student that traditionally, like myself, that said - you went to college, and you had to take history and philosophy and get this well rounded kind of education - people are going to start to get a customized education and say, "Look, I don't want all of that. I can't afford all of that. I need to get maybe a basic math, basic English, and maybe I want to study marketing, and therefore I want my degree to be based on that." So I think we come from a world of customization. It's not as much of an adjustment as it was many years ago for people to buy into that. And I at the end of the day, you want the students to to get the most out of their education. By creating some type of custom product for them, it creates a circular learning environment where what they are hearing in class is now something they're reading. It doesn't go against it. It doesn't become a situation where I'm reading a book Ryan wrote, and Jen's the professor and she's teaching me something that contradicts what Ryan's saying, now I'm spending my time trying to figure out who's right. It gives me one solid voice that now I can really understand. And so to me, I think the Custom World is something we're now more accustomed in everything. And I would want to put your education into that.
Jen Lewis:Yeah, and I think for me, I always try to put myself in the shoes of anyone listening to this who is maybe a potential author or a professor. Let's dig a little bit deeper into that. When you're talking about customization, what are some trends you're seeing? Or what do you think are the most popular tools? They're using maybe interactivity, maybe checkpoints, quizzes? What do you find to be the most popular when they are customizing these these books?
Greg DeRosa:In all honesty, we are finding people that are less people that want to write an entire product because of time and things, and there's a lot on their plate. So you know, borrowing some kind of content for themselves, in conjunction with some of the materials that they've written, or maybe some expertise that they have, is a perfect fit for what we do. And eventually, over time, they can then take maybe that borrowed material out and add some of their their own. So it can really be fully theirs over time, but most people don't want to make that true 100% investment upfront, and we allow them to do that with regard to kind of creating that process with them. You know, I think one of the things that we're really good at in that is to is to kind of walk them through that entire process, really kind of say,"Okay, this is how you can do it." And the digital world has allowed us to create, you know, such a better product, it's a layered product, right? You know, back in the day, a print book was a static book, right? It's I know, everybody was just watching the movie clips, right? And so you would teach, you know, an astronomy class, and you read a book about, "This is how the planets rotate around the sun, and moon, and how all these things work together." But I can't get that from a static print book. But I can now understand that from a digital world that we bring to life. And so I can read some text about what a solar eclipse might look like. And now I can click on a link that shows it to me. Well, you know, and so now, it brings in that depth of learning. That is immense for students. You know, I'm old school, I'm older in age, right? So I'm still a print book, you know? I know, you guys can't see, but I got a bunch of books on my shelf behind me. And so I'm still old school, I still read print books, and all those kinds of things. But I remember, a personal light bulb went off to me, you know? I mean, again, I have to sell these ideas to professors. And so you have to believe in what you're selling. And so there was a point, probably 10 years ago, very long story short, where there was a local band that my wife knew one of the band members, and is one of her students, and so they were performing at this really big, kind of like venue, in Asbury Park. And so the kids were going to a gig down in Delaware, they get rear ended in a car accident, and one of the kids dies. Terrible accident. And so, you know, she's telling me about this piece, and I'm reading it in the paper. And so I don't know anything about their band. I don't know anything about their members. I don't know anything about the competition that they were in. All I know is what's in that one page, that brief article, right? So I started to think of myself, well, let me Google their names. Let me Google their band. And I started to find out the music that they played, I started to find that I actually liked their music, and that the other band members were in this competition that they still wanted to try to continue on, and be a part of it. So I'm like, "We should go, we should support those guys. And we should do those things." Well, if I don't have digital learning, if I don't have that experience, I don't get any of that information. And so it allows the process. What it made me think of is that if I find something that's interesting to me, I can go click on, "What kind of music is this? What do they listen to? What's this kind of thing now, so I get a better understanding of the whole thing, rather than just a paragraph or two that somebody decided to write in their own voice?" And so it brings a fuller level to learning, which again - assessment, you asked about - what are the things that are coming? Popular assessments are big now. They want to know,"Okay, do they have a basic understanding?" You know, how much time are they spending on certain things so that they can become more effective educators, and that they can make sure that the students are being prepared as they move through stages of
Jen Lewis:Yeah, yeah. I love that. You know, 28 years...I life? have to know, is there any one story from a campus visit, or maybe an author, that you still have a long lasting-relationship with or a book that you helped, you know, get going off the ground that maybe comes to mind that you can share, because I think it's always nice to have an example of from the start on campus to kind of finish and how it's lasted throughout the years.
Greg DeRosa:Yeah. There's a few that I can't share, unfortunately, with what it was...there's a couple of funny ones. Would be would be a little too embarrassing, probably, for me to probably share as well. But yeah, there's, there's been some funny moments for sure. You know, I think, for me, I think about authors. I mean, there's a couple that you know, like, I guess, first things that popped into my mind for all those years, it's the first book. In fact, I have it on my bookshelf, and it's the first book that I ever did. And so it was this professor married at Montclair State. It was a sociology product. And I remember, I remember working with her first excited, you know, like, I'd never done this before, right? It was just a different arena. And she was so nice to me that she actually put my name in the book, which I don't know that we do that anymore. And so she literally put my name in the book, and I was so excited to show my parents like, I was like, Look at this, like, I got my name in a book, like, how cool is that? I was so proud of that. And so at the time, I think I was probably when it came to come on, I was maybe like, 29, or 30. And, you know, you kind of try to, still at this stage, you're making your parents proud, right? You want to like, "Hey, like, look, I turned into something," you know? And it was pretty cool for me to do that. So I think that's one of them that I remember really fondly because again, it was the first one. And it still matters to me. Like I said, it's a book on my shelf that I kept. And then the other one was a gentleman who we did some work with. It was a different type of publishing we used to do back in the day. It was kind of like this professional education type thing where it was people that didn't have a college course, necessarily, but they did workshops and such, and they had almost like a business, and so they needed product. And so now this is way probably before both of your times. But you know, I did a book with this gentleman. And it was Mark Rosenberg. Mark was a goal-setter, Time Management Coach kind of before they really became a thing. And so Mark wanted to do this book for his workshop. And I still remember he wanted to do, like, a 3000-copy print run. Huge, massive, right? And I was like,"Dude, are you sure you're gonna sell all these?" He's like,"Absolutely," which he did. And we did so well with the product. He wanted to do a cassette series, right, which like - good luck! Now nobody's gonna find it because no player to play anything, right? But one of the coolest things about meeting a gentleman like Mark - but the other extreme of this for me was I remember going to his house to sign the agreement, and it was very inspiring to me, because on his wall, he had this picture of Hawaii. And I said, "What's the picture about?" Just being curious. He said, "You know, it's a goal of mine in 10 years to be able to take my family on a trip to Hawaii. And so I look at that every day." Goal setting, time management - made sense, right? I was like, "It's pretty cool." So I took that same kind of incentive. And I kept a picture of Hawaii on my wall. It was something that I set as a goal for myself that at some point, I'm going to take my family to Hawaii, and for my 50th - my wife and I for our 50th Birthdays - we took our kids to Maui. And so I reflect on Mark being kind of that person, that influence, in that way that made me think about, you know, if you look at it, you'll see it. And it was something that I felt really proud of that I achieved just like he did. I think that kind of tells the story of different types of experiences and what we do. Like Mary Holly, who it was her first time publishing to a person, like how Mark was experienced and knowing what he was doing. But we're able to help both of them in different ways be successful. And it gave us meaningful experiences in different ways.
Jen Lewis:Yeah, and I think it's so important that you share stories like that, because, as a boots-on-the-ground publisher, you know, I think it's important for people to understand that we genuinely care about what problems they're facing in the classroom. We care about them publishing their own book. And I would imagine, 20 years later, you probably still get excited to work on books and to see people complete them because I imagine it's a part of the job you love the most.
Greg DeRosa:Yeah, I tell people this because I interview a lot of people for the positions that I have and and they asked me,"Why do you stay for as long as you do?" and I said, "You know, people people look for a few things in life, whatever their careers are, and one of them is that they want to do something that they enjoy, that they genuinely feel like makes a difference. And they want to work with people and work for people that enjoy that experience too." I think we're fortunate as a company. You look at our culture, you know. We have people that have - I think 70 people in our company have had over 20 years of experience or some crazy number, which is just unheard of. And, you know, when you work with projects, or authors work with projects, they work on the first edition, second edition, third edition, a lot of times with the same production person. They've gotten into them that they're part of their families. It's that whole culture that we kind of build, and to me, that's the investment that matters to us. It's why we do what we do. It's still exciting for me. Sometimes it may be helping a person create something that maybe makes their life easier. But a lot of times it's that first author that says, "I've always wanted to do this, and I've never really thought I could," and helping them get across the finish line. You know, I joke with them, "I'll probably never write a book. I'll probably never see my name on the outside of the book." I mean, thankfully, I was fortunate to have in on the inside. But I may not see in on the outside, but I know that I've helped a lot of people do that. And there's a lot of satisfaction that comes with that. And still today. I mean, it's why we do what we do.
Jen Lewis:Ryan, you've been here, what, 23 years also?
Ryan Brown:Yeah, yeah. It has to be fulfilling from your perspective to have an impact. And all these authors lives. And then the end users as well. Helping them fulfill their dreams has to be a great feeling.
Greg DeRosa:I tell them all the time, "It's different than any other job that they can have." Right? If I sell copiers or I sell phones or things, it's a static type of product, right? If Jen's in a Verizon store, and Jen calls out sick, and you're there, you make the sale, right, it's there. If I call out sick, and I don't go to campus, that book never gets done. That's the difference. If I'm not there, making that call that never exists, if I'm not good at what I do, that never exists. And I don't know that there's too many products or things that you can do out there where the product only exists because you started that. And it's really powerful, right? I mean, I think again, you've been here a long time, like, you know that stuff. And you've worked on so many things. You've seen the excitement of marketing a product, and you know the ones where we got some adoptions, and how exciting that is for them. And to be able to do that - that's awesome, right? I mean, it's still it's gotta be for you, too.
Ryan Brown:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Just having an impact in young people's lives is huge. That's very fulfilling for me. One thing I always hear from editors that go on campus, is how many book covers - have you seen framed book covers on the walls? I've been on campuses where they'll have pictures of every edition of their book on their office wall. And they treat it like it's almost their kids' pictures?
Greg DeRosa:Yeah, that's a really neat feeling. I mean, again, I think we're talking about this whole thing being face-to-face, right? That's some of the stuff that you appreciate when you're on campus. We're all in snapshot windows where we see a little bit of our backgrounds, of our lives, of what are interesting things, but it doesn't show the whole office, right? And so, when you're in somebody's office, you get to know a lot about them. You see family photos, you see things that they have on the wall, and you're right. Those are those are badges of pride that they put on their wall. I mean, I've had authors go, "Hey, I got one from my first edition, and I'm still waiting for the second one, can you follow up with me, I want to make sure I have that," It matters to them. I think that that's a great thing that we started some years ago. I don't think we had that back when I first started, so I appreciate the fact that you guys have done those kinds of things. And I think those are all things that we do as a company because we are proud, because we're talking about pride in our authors to write. They're proud of what they've done. And they were proud of what they've done to us. We do a lot more now with social media. I know you guys are doing a great job with posting those kinds of successes of somebody being published on LinkedIn or on X because we're proud of them. You know, we want them to know that, too. And I think that's something where when they see their colleagues go, "Oh, that's awesome. Jen, I didn't know you wrote a book," or"Ryan, that's cool!" I still get calls from authors. It's like,"Can I get a couple of print copies just for my mom or my dad or my kids?" You know, I'm like,"Absolutely. We're happy to do that for you." And I'm thinking, how cool is that? I get chills thinking about it. When I'm like sending out a book so their kids can say, "Look, Dad did this," like I just said like I was proud of that day that I showed the book to my mom. I'm in debt. Like, look, I did this right. And I didn't write the book. It just helped start it. You know, so to me, I think that's pretty cool. And I think our authors still feel that that matters to them.
Jen Lewis:Yeah, and I think one thing is clear, is that I don't think going to campuses is ever gonna go away. I think it's a part of who Kendall Hunt Publishing is. I think it's one of our keys to success, because it makes us real people in this digital world. So you know, I think we've talked about a lot, I think we're at a good point where people understand why we do this. Do you want to maybe tell everyone where you're located, what schools or territory do you oversee in case people might want to get in touch? Because we can put your info in the show notes, if anybody wants to maybe work with you?
Greg DeRosa:Well, I hope they want to work with me, because why wouldn't they want to work with me? I've got great people. Now, I'm based in New Jersey. As I mentioned, we handle a majority of the small schools. So there's those colleges, universities, to your four-year public, private, what have you, that have those enrollments of 7500 students or less. I've covered basically everything from the middle of the country east right now. So if you're on any state from let's say, North or South Dakota, going towards Maine, give me a call. I'd be happy to help. And, you know, like I said, I'm proud of what we do. You know, as you mentioned, the face to face stuff isn't gonna go away. COVID changed it, for sure. But I think in some ways, I think we've learned how to use that in some ways to be productive, and to maybe be a little bit more flexible with people's schedules and things. But at the end of the day, I still think it kind of went the opposite. When I started, it was all face to face. There was no technology, right? So it had to be that way. And then COVID created the opposite effect, where it became all Zoom, and so now, we're starting to kind of find that balance of where that is in between. And so it's still the fun part of the job. If you ask anybody that's a rep, the fun part of the job is busy. Unless it's a rainy day. I'm gonna tell you that - rainy day. Other than that, it's a fun part of the job.
Jen Lewis:Marketing can get you some Kendall Hunt umbrellas.
Greg DeRosa:That would be nice, or ponchos or some rain jackets. I think you need to add Mr. Chandlee into the budget of that.
Jen Lewis:Yeah, I'll talk to him. But yeah, it's not for sure. Yeah. Well, if anybody's listening and wants to work with Greg DeRosa, we highly encourage it. And maybe they'll put your name in their future book to tail end the back half of your career, like we did the first half. Well, we are so thankful that you were able to spend time with us today. I think you you shed a lot of light on the importance of campus visits. And I hope a lot of people who listen to this take take some pieces away from this and understand why publishing is so important and what we can do for them. So I will put your contact info in the show notes and thank you so so much for being here today. We really appreciate it.
Greg DeRosa:I appreciate it. It's great talking to you guys again, and I will see you guys soon.
Jen Lewis:Thanks, Greg.